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Hz reading tests

Posted by Mystic on 08/09/10


As promised I have run some tests to check the Hz readings on a power supply with a digital HZ readout compared to the actual speed of the machine. I am not going to identify the brand but it is a common unit used in the industry and I would presume is indicative of most others.
Firstly to verify my testing procedures I needed to test my own machines, unlike twin coil DC machines my machines are AC powered, I utilize the Sine wave of AC to either speed up or slow down my machines by varying the frequency of the wave form. My power unit will vary the frequency of the AC sine wave from 35 to 75 HZ (+/-1Hz).
Methodology. Using a laser aimed, non contact Tachometer aimed at a special reflective strip attached to the armature bar lug of the machine I could get a count on how many times the bar passed the laser beam, one going down and one coming up, this readout was divided by two to give the CPS of the machine and the CPS is divided by 60 to give the Hz. I made three measurements of each speed tested to ensure accuracy, these three readings were added together and divided by 3 to give an average reading.
I tested my machines with the control turned down as far as it would go and got three very consistent readings of 4390, 4389, 4390, so as you can see the testing procedure is reliable. These readings averaged out to 4389, and divided by two gave me a CPS reading of 2194 which is 36 Hz, within the +/-1Hz parameters of the unit. The top speed CPS was 4489, 74.8 Hz. Readings taken at the average speed I personally line at are 3700 CPS/61Hz, where I colour at 3100 CPS/51Hz. All these readings were consistent with exactly what I would expect and know of how my machines operate.
I then applied the same procedures to a DC machine, The results for various speeds are as follows, I have listed the Hz readout on the power supply and then give the ACTUAL Hz/CPS readouts as tested.
204Hz 12240 CPS actual 102 Hz 6178 CPS
160 Hz 9600 CPS actual 80 Hz 4829 CPS
150 Hz 9000 CPS actual 75 Hz 4500 CPS
124 Hz 7440 CPS actual 58Hz 3480 CPS
100 Hz 6000 CPS actual 50 Hz3000 CPS
As you can see the power supply readings are wrong. They are consistently wrong by 100%. The chip is clearly measuring the spring leaving and coming.
Its a pity the first person who thought of it didnt do a physical test on the machine as it would have probably been quite easy to compensate for this in the circuit. Unfortunately everyone has copied the first one! At least by dividing the Hz readout by 2 you can get a good indication of the real Hz and machine speed, but with the price you pay for these power units you would expect them to be right.



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RE:Hz reading tests

Posted by Solomon on 08/09/10


dude you are sooooo wrong, the power supplies dont lie, you went through just to prove your lil point I hope your proud of yourself asshole......


JK! w0w good job man, I guess I was wrong, I beleived the numbers. So when im running a color machine loaded and my eikon says 89 I am running exactly half that? We gotta spread the word on this. What a silly mistake they made, it kinda erks me that they didnt check this. Im not enraged, but it sure seems like something you would count before you advertised it as gospel.

btw what powersupply did you use? if you dont want to post it would you please send me an email?


kadillac-man@hotmail.com thanks!


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RE:Hz reading tests

Posted by brian on 08/09/10


interesting
i just dont understand how the laser make the readings


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RE:Hz reading tests

Posted by anthony on 08/10/10


good thing i smoked that joint before i read all this...


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RE:Hz reading tests

Posted by Shane on 08/10/10


So I ran my machines mostly off of feel and a ten turn power supply up until about a year ago. Now I have an ems 300. It tells me my shader runs at about 87 cps. How are you possibly running cps numbers in the thousands??? I am totally lost. I'm really not a numbers guy, but this is so confusing. Is my unit busted or are you using another form of measurement?


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RE:Hz reading tests

Posted by anthony on 08/10/10


you're power supply is fine dude. i have no idea what that is all about up there either.


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RE:Hz reading tests

Posted by Shane on 08/10/10


Ok good. I was about to get out my laser beams and discover the truth!


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RE:Hz reading tests

Posted by ChrisDowning on 08/10/10


I think when he is saying CPS and his numbers are in the thousands he meant CPM.

I think that was a pretty interesting read for sure. If it's in fact accurate (not challenging your tests, this sort of thing needs some peer review) it baffles me that when the code was done on the chips for those power supplies this was not factored in.

For me it does not matter, the real usefulness of the metered power supplies is in comparing machines to each other and getting a rough idea of how you like a machine to run. It's neat to have the numbers there but as you become more experienced with the mechanics of your machine they mean less and less and your thumb becomes a more accurate meter of how a machine is actually running anyway.

I am really interested in hearing more about what type of setup you are running on AC. Some sort of AC motor rotary? If you don't mind sharing I would LOVE to hear about it!


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RE:Hz reading tests

Posted by Mystic on 08/10/10


Chris thanks for picking up on that, yes it is an error CPS is CPM!
However the test results are accurate and I its a simple procedure that any independent testing agency should be able to carry out.
I only got interested in this topic because most artists here run around 40/60Hz (true Hz) or 2400/3600 CPM and when our North American friends hear this they think we are all hand poking our Tattoos down under because they think they are all Tattooing at 80Hz+ and who can blame them as thats what the readouts are saying.
I dont care that some people dont like the results and I did ask Soloman twice if he had ever done any physical tests to verify that the readouts matched the actual speeds of the machines no answer was forthcoming apart for him to call me an asshole after I had done my own tests.
If any of you technically minded artists would like to see just how fast a machine is running at a true 60Hz you could get yourself a small AC Plug Pack that matches the output DC voltage of your machine i.e if running at 6 volts DC get a plug pack with an output of 6 volts AC/60Hz. Remove the insulated washers from the top post of your machine so that the point screw binder post is connected directly to the machine frame along with the coil wire, use some metal washers for spacers if you want, the point screw will now be only acting as a throw adjusting screw. Hook up the AC plug pack to your machine and hit the foot switch.
If you did it right your machine will be running at 60 Hz. This applies to North America and countries that have house hold current of 110 Volts/60Hz. In New Zealand its 220 volts/50Hz. So here the machine would be running at 50Hz. Please dont run for to long as the DC coils are not made for this and will overheat very quickly.
This will give you a benchmark 60Hz , compare the speed of this machine to a DC machine on one of these supplies with a reading of say 80Hz even 100Hz and see for yourselves its running faster!


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RE:Hz reading tests

Posted by BBI on 08/10/10


Mystic - Wont the 60Hz ~AC produce 120Hz machine speed due to the fact that one complete sine wave passes zero potential twice? Given the fact that DC coils function without regard to direction of magnetic field, they will always want to complete the field in the easiest pathway being the armature bar, thus a positive potential and a negative potential will have an equal effect of attraction. Some of this is negated through hysteresis of the iron core material, so 120Hz is merely theoretical. If the ~AC source were half wave rectified, or better yet, in the form of a half square wave, I could see this being a viable and effective method of both machine speed measure and total machine adjustability. The zero potential replacing the opposite of working cycle would create the 50% duty machine. Just my .02.


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RE:Hz reading tests

Posted by Solomon on 08/10/10


ahhhh poor Mystic did I hurt your lil feelers lol. I guess you missed that part where I gave you alot of praise for puttin in work.


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RE:Hz reading tests

Posted by Solomon on 08/10/10


I mean, it was so painfully obvious I was kidding, I was totally on top of thanking you for puttin all the time into doing that test and shit. Do they not have any form of sarcasm where your from? Now I must totally refute all of your findings! They must be false comming form sucha candy pants!

Anyways, in case you missed it that was me joking again. But all joking aside. When we run our machines loaded over here, most color machines are running in the 70-80cps which is much closer to numbers you are running, so I guess well have to do the same test here with a buch of differant machines and see whats what.


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RE:Hz reading tests

Posted by shadow on 08/11/10


@ Solomon. I totally got it, At first I was like, whoa, brutal, But then I read THE WHOLE thing. Maybe this guy didn't. I thought it was very interesting, and way to go for puttin in the effort. Gotta take some comments with a grain of salt, guy...humor doesn't always translate in the written form. We can't all be Hunter S. Thompson. ps GONZO FOR LIFE!


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RE:Hz reading tests

Posted by Grindcore on 08/13/10


Sorry Mystic, but I think you are wrong. You can make a quick and rough test and you will see the results. Let me say that I did this "Test" just for fun.

If you run your machine for 1 second trough a paper with a hand movement quite fast you can count the separeted holes on the paper quite easy. I ran my machine for 1 second at 115HZ, (this is my power supply reading) and surprisingly I could count 114 holes!!!


I must say that I know what a second is, because I have been into music ever since, I play guitar, bass and drums, so time, believe me, it's not an issue, and also if my machine was running half of the power's supply reading, the diference in the quantity of holes would be very noticeable, but in the 5 or 6 times that I reapeted this test, the results were pretty damm right, with small variables, it was like 113 holes, 118, 116....


I did run aswell my machine trough a A3 paper for 6 seconds, in order to have more consistency, but this time with a slower machine running at 85HZ, and with a clock on my laptop!!! LOL :


)When I counted the holes it gave me 477holes, this divided by 6 would give about 80holes a second!!!

Not to much of a diference, only about 5 cycles less than my power supply is reading, and even if I fail to run the machine for 6 complete seconds I do not have a 50% diference like you say.

In my opinion you should check you laser.

Just my 2 cents.


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RE:Hz reading tests

Posted by Gindcore on 08/13/10


I forgot to say that in order to be able to run the machine for 6 seconds without stoping I had to make like a "snake shape" on the A3 paper. Hope this make sence...


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RE:Hz reading tests

Posted by Daghan on 08/13/10


Good posts and a good read... thanks everybody for the effort and keep coming please...greetings from sunny Turkish coast...


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RE:Hz reading tests

Posted by Solomon on 08/13/10


Awesome job Grindcore, I was gonna do the exact same thing you did. But I obviously never got around to it. I really didnt see how the math could be wrong on the chips, but I had to admit I was having my doubts. I guess we all gotta keep doing similar type tests and after enough people weigh in I figure we will have a fairly definitive answer. Now because of the powersupply numbers backing you up, I have to lean towards your test as the more likely correct answer. Like I said before most of us all color in the 80-90 htz range, and line in the 120-130 range, and shade somewhere inbetween that. Most of the time when we are talking about 150-180 htz these are numbers generated by an unloaded tattoo machine.


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RE:Hz reading tests

Posted by Grindcore on 08/14/10


Thanks Solomon, I just wanted to do some physical test in order to count the holes, unlike the laser, with this test I can see the physical results(holes) and with the laser I need to trust on it.

Mystic is saying that a machine is running half of the speed that the power supply is measuring, 50% its a lot...

I know that I'm not a clock to run a machine for an acurate second, that's why I ran my machine for 6 seconds, and believe me, its a lot of time when you are with a tattoo machine! Even if its running at 85HZ !!!

But imagine that I ran my machine for 7 seconds, instead of 6 seconds (Wich I believe I didn't fail for a complete second)...I still have 68 holes a second, (477 holes Divided by 7 seconds).

And if I did a second less, 5 seconds? I would still have a very close result, 95 holes a second, more 10 that the powers supply reading...Not even close to 50% less...so I really believe that those laser counts are wrong.

Let me say that I know that some chinese power supplies copies would give you the double of the cycles a second, but you would see it straight away, Imagine a machine running at 100HZ, and the reading saying 200HZ!!! Everyone would notice that!!!

If you guys got a spare time, try it for yourselves and tell us the results.


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RE:Hz reading tests

Posted by Solomon on 08/15/10


first of all. we cant assume that Mystic is completely wrong. It is possible that his powersupply for some reason is exactly 100 percent wrong 100 percent of the time. But I think its fairly obvious that if Mystic is wrong it is how he interpreted the data, by dividing by two when it wasnt necessary. So once again, I doubt the powersupply is wrong. Now I want to reitterate that I dont keep saying that because I think the powersupplies are the end all be all, I only say that because in my experience building powersupplies and speakers and blah blah blah, equipment that measures frequencies in the hundreds per second are not high end. We as tool makers have the ability to measure accurately many orders of magnitude greater than that. I mean, comeon a five dollar stop watch measures to the tenthousandths of a second.-


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RE:Hz reading tests

Posted by Mystic on 08/15/10


Hi Grindcore
Good test man, all mine were un-loaded!


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RE:Hz reading tests

Posted by Mystic on 09/26/10


Hi Guys
Just to get back to you all without going into any more debates on the subject, after re-testing using Grindcore's very simple and accurate method I would like to say that the HZ readings (at least on our test unit) are almost spot on throughout the range. Solomon is right and I was wrong. Also thanks to BBI after digesting your post and re-examining our own machine speeds we have concluded you are absolutely correct in that our armature bar cycles down and back up twice per Hz cycle ! Thanks.


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