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Red Rats

Posted by Ben Reigle on 11/12/09


I figured this would be the forum to post on to get some educated answers about a recent problem i have encountered. Regarding Red Rat grip covers on stainless steel tubes, we have a new person at the shop that uses them on every tube, and i asked for them to make sure they were taking them off after every tattoo, before the tube hit any solution in the ultrasonic. the argument i got back was " Well why do you not take apart your 3 piece tube everytime"
Now i know the easy answer would be to make the switch to disposable tubes, but for those artists who are steadfast in their ways j of using metal tubes , do you have any opinions on this topic any of you.
i strive to be 100% sterile with EVERY single step of my processes and expect that from every single artist that comes through this shop. I need some advice.
thanks
benreigle



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RE:Red Rats

Posted by Timber on 11/12/09


Are you telling me you don't break down your tubes to clean them before sterilization?


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RE:Red Rats

Posted by HST on 11/12/09


In my opinion, if you haven't broken down your 3 piece tube prior to cleaning & sterilization, you should. For an example, break one down & look at the mess between the grip & stem or in the joining of your stem & tip.
The Red Rats should absolutely be removed prior to cleaning and sterilization... Every time.
If you don't agree, please try removing one and look what the "stuff" hiding beneath it.
I would imagine if you contacted Red Rats directly, they would advise you to remove them as well.
If you do contact them, please post their reply here.
Thanks!


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RE:Red Rats

Posted by br on 11/12/09


thank you for the information. from my 3 years of experience with almost 20 artists, i know only two who have broken down everything everytime, hence the reason for my question. I have seen piles of dirty tubes in greensoap waiting for the ultrasonic, and many other vile things.i am questing answers to help out not only myself, whom you may think ignorant for asking such a question, but answers to help educate a slew of people i am involved with.
I personally understand the fundamentals of what should be done. that is why i have made the switch to disposables.
i think education is key.


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RE:Red Rats

Posted by HST on 11/13/09


I sent an email to Red Rats and asked them what their thoughts are about this subject... here is their reply:
"I think to make sure you steralize the whole thing it would be best to remove them. It just depends on how thourogh you want to be with cleaning."
-redrat


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RE:Red Rats

Posted by Timber on 11/13/09


I'm not trying to be a prick here but if your not breaking down your tubes to scrub them then you are risking the health of your customers. There is no excuse for this it is just being lazy and/or possibly a lack of knowledge. You should have learned this when you were taught how to tattoo. There is a whole process that you should be following which you should know, if you don't please educate yourself.


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RE:Red Rats

Posted by HST on 11/13/09


Timber,
I couldn't agree with you more! I attempted to take a softer approach to giving my opinion, but the way you said it just puts a nice sharp point on it! All i's dotted and t's crossed!!
A good BBP course is the best place for this artist and his circle of associates to begin... make that, a good place for EVERYONE to begin.


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RE:Red Rats

Posted by ? on 11/14/09


wouldn't the process of running the tubes through the autoclave on a normal sterilization cycle eliminate all bloodborne pathogens contained in the leftover residue? i definitely appreciate what you guys are sayin, and im ceratinly not sayin you're wrong, but i dont think most people are taught to be so thorough in this step of cleaning (braking down a 3 piece tube), myself included. scary to think about...


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RE:Red Rats

Posted by travelingtom on 11/14/09


"wouldn't the process of running the tubes through the autoclave on a normal sterilization cycle eliminate all bloodborne pathogens contained in the leftover residue? i definitely appreciate what you guys are sayin, and im ceratinly not sayin you're wrong, but i dont think most people are taught to be so thorough in this step of cleaning (braking down a 3 piece tube), myself included. scary to think about..."

the answer to that is fuck no, all the organisms that are in the ink, on the tube and in all the tight little pores in the metal, are actually protected by dried up ink and blood. if you don't scrub that shit off before sterilization, when that blood or ink gets moist again, the organisms can re-surface and combine with new ones that the new client may have and cause a serious infection, and if you don't clean that shit properly, then you have all kinds of disease contaminating everything in your shop. this shit is stuff every apprentice should learn before they even touch a machine, to be honest, it sounds to me like a bunch kitchen magicians got together and opened a shop. use your fucking head, your fucking with blood. and that is serious shit.


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RE:Red Rats

Posted by HST on 11/14/09


Hey ?
The answer to your question is NO!!!
PLEASE take a certified BBP (Blood Borne Pathogen) course. They designed to educate you, protect you, your client, our art & our professional reputation. You should be asking these and other questions there.
There is such a thing as Universal Precautions.
Beyond it's technical meaning, it also means that what you do or don't do effects other tattoo artists who do follow proper procedure. Our reputation is only as strong as the weakest link in the chain.
All it would take is one serious outbreak of MRSA or some other fucked up mutated viral matter to stem from a tattoo shop or some kitchen magician and the CDC will be all up in arms!!
In other words, "the beginning of the end" thanks to uneducated people calling themselves professional tattoo artists and not maintaining their instruments properly or even close to the standard recognized & set by the industry.
You have to crawl before you can walk... and from the sounds of it, you started off trying to run... now, you've fallen and you can't get up! (At least w/o a proper education)


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RE:Red Rats

Posted by ? on 11/14/09


To: nheimtattoos@yahoo.comfirst of all, i've taken 5 bbp courses (as well as first aid and cpr) in 5 years as required by law to tattoo in this state, so i understand fundamental ideas of how to properly contain and kill bbp. in the courses ive taken, from the red cross, the cleaning of tools, to this detail, is not discussed. and these types of issues are probaly not addressed in these courses because the instructors are not tattoo artists, but former nurses, who probaly do not deal with the actual sterilization of the implements that are used. and the people who do, are possibly not cleaning 3 piece tools. so no one has addressed these issues in these classes. i agree that a pathogen is still present in the residue until the residue is completely removed from the surface, in a normal enviroment. i merely raised the question of whether or not the pathogen is still present in the reidue after being put through a 270 degree, 45 minute cycle.
"thanks to uneducated people calling themselves professional tattoo artists and not maintaining their instruments properly or even close to the standard recognized & set by the industry."
ive seen a VERY well respected artist lay his arm directly on a tattoo in progress. and when i walk into a convention alot of the highest reguarded artists in the room don t even bag thier machines, contaminating them like crazy. i assume that if that if alot of artist dont even bag thier machines, that they probaly dont break down thier tubes before chucking them in an ultrasonic and autoclave. br says that only 3 outta 20 tattooers he has experience with, broke down the 3-piece tube. im not sayin that its right or wrong (probaly wrong), im just saying ALOT of well respected (and not so well respected) artist dont do it. and if you talked to them like that (like they're a scratcher who dont know shit) to thier face, and not behind behind a computer screen and keyboard, they would knock the teeth outta your face.


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RE:Red Rats

Posted by HST on 11/14/09


Ya know, it's funny how easily folks bite the hand that feeds. I offered my opinion / knowledge on the subject and did not castigate you or make any verbal attack against you for your lack of knowledge.
Now, with that being said, I find it hysterical that you offer to "knock the teeth out of my face" with the assumption that I am hiding behind my computer. YOU my friend are hiding your identity by using a question mark as your screen name... which is just gay!
I go to many conventions and see the same things you do... that doesn't make them right. Furthermore, while a Red Cross BBP class might offer you a certificate to legally operate as a tattoo artist, it apparently does not offer you the proper education to tattoo using correct procedure ie: Universal Precautions.
There are many courses offered by professionals in OUR industry covering practical solutions and answers to the tools we use and how to properly maintain them.
Again, I suggest you start there prior to running your mouth here.
If you'd like to continue w/ idle threats, I will give you my e-mail address, or phone number... we can discuss this further privately.
If you feel publically humilitated... that is not my intention.
-Randy


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RE:Red Rats

Posted by ? on 11/14/09


hold on a second, with all due respect, i never offered to knock the teeth outta your face. im just sayin that you cant talk to people like that that you dont even know. just making a point that alot of the industry (including well respected artist) is probaly not adhering to that strict of standards and i agree that they should. just sayin...


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RE:Red Rats

Posted by Timber on 11/14/09


Here is the thing, not many years ago back (about 2) the local health board put out a package on propper cleaning of instruments for tattooing. They advised that a disposible tip could be used with a S/S stem and grip, as long as a new tip was used for each customer and the grip was wiped down with a chemical they sugested.

This is totally fucking wrong! the health board thinks they are the experts but they don't know fuck about tattooing, only the "real" tattooers know. So am I going to take this type of short cut just becaused the health board allows it? Fuck NO!!!, because I know what I'm doing and more importantly I care about my reputation and my clients!

If you don't know what your doing and are asking those type of questions on here, you are not a professional, even if you work in a shop or take hundreds of courses. Most scratchers these days know to break down their tubes and all about cross contamination, this information is all over the web and in books, don't be lazy, "really" educate yourself, and the others around you, don't use the excuse "well they do it, so it is ok" that is a lazy bullshit attitude!!!!

By the way, some local tattooers took the time to propperly educate the health board and they no longer allow the above mentioned method.


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RE:Red Rats

Posted by Jose Morales on 11/14/09


First of all, I totally agree, every precaution for the customers safety, as well as yours, must and should be taken with every step of keeping sterile and sanitary. Even if it means breaking down your 3 piece metal tube, taking off your grip, everything!.....

But, "?" did make a good point (not that it makes it right or anything of that nature so please don't attack me!). Not to even point fingers (even though I guess thats what I'm doing in a way) in any disrespectful way, but there are bad ass tattoo guys, like world renown people, that have years of a waiting list, that any tattoo artist will recognize when they hear the name,....that have probably not taken apart some of their favorite metal tubes for at least 2 years. And of course this is not acceptable, and by any means not a reason to do the same thing as them in this aspect. But, um, not all of these people who don't separate their 3 piece sets for the sterilization process are scratchers or kitchen magicians.

Once again, I am not saying it is ok to not take every precaution, I mean, I use nothing but disposable tubes and disposable red grips, but I know not everyone does, and I realize that, even if I dont agree with it. To address this situation to those people who dont, I think requires a little more respect. I mean, obviously not being as clean as possible is in no way respectful, but yeah, a lot of these world bad ass artists would probably knock someone's teeth out or tell them off at least if they were approached like that, not pointing a finger or anything, but I'm just saying. And I dont think anyone was embarrassed in here, or shouldnt be, because this forum is supposed to be here for us, not to try to down each other.....help each other. And obviously if you know more on being sterile, help educate, without attacking each other. Just because you share some information, doesnt mean that your giving them an apprenticeship online......you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make him drink it!


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RE:Red Rats

Posted by Gina on 11/15/09


A few things:

1). If steam cannot penetrate every single area of the item being sterilized, then it is NOT sterile. This includes tube, tip and grip combos, as well as leaving the Red Rat (or other brand) grip covers on. Steam does not penetrate through the area between the tube/tip stem and grip. And the area between the grip and the inner part of the grip cover is also not being penetrated by the steam.

That's a fact, no matter how you choose to go about your shop's hygiene.

2). While people love to guard their tattoo secrets, I see NOTHING wrong with sharing with, and educating, people about sterilization. What's the worst that can happen, you teach someone how not to spread diseases?

Yes, people should take the proper courses, but as someone mentioned, the Red Cross courses on BBP aren't specific to this industry and they are rather ignorant when it comes to this profession.

3). People need to educate themselves on the difference between cleaning, disinfection and sterilization. Firstly, (ok, just a pet peeve of mine) is that people constantly use the word "sterile" in the wrong context. Your shop might be clean. It might be disinfected and sanitary. It is NOT sterile.

In addition, no BBP course I ever took explained to me the methods of proper sterilization. So please and kindly, get of you're high-horses.

4th) and, finally, there is a great DVD available that is called - "Standards of Practice: Infection Control for the Modification Industry"

I suggest everyone pick it up and have a look and listen.


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RE:Red Rats

Posted by anthony on 11/15/09


so what subject are you guys going to over analyze, say the same thing the person before you said just slightly different, and belittle each other to next?


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RE:Red Rats

Posted by travelingtom on 11/15/09


this thread just lowered my I.Q. by a couple points. whoever you are mr. ? you're original question about whether or not sterilizing dirty tools would kill the organisms living in it was a retarded ass question, and is commen sense to know anything covered in blood and or ink should be scrubbed off prior to sterilization. if you took any kind of class, you would know that. i think your full of shit, and if your not , then post some of your work, or where you work to prove us big fat meanies wrong!!!!


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RE:Red Rats

Posted by Timber on 11/15/09


I have to agree with that last post. The guy who made the original post is full of shit, lots of back peddling going on now.

There is a difference between someone who doesn't know shit and admits to that and asks for help and a person who pretendes to know what they are talking about and lies to try to obtain information. Honestly if you were to post a question about sterilization on this site and advise you were new and wanted to learn to do it propperly I think alot of people wouldn't have minded sharing that information or at least pointing you in the right direction, especially on the topic of sterliization. But posing as a professional, being caught time and time again contradicting your own statements, makes you look like a goof, and most people have no time for that. (me included)

Everyone has to start somewhere, but the way your going about it is all wrong, and there are already enough "wrong" people in the buisness.

That is just the way I see it, I'm done with this post. (I'm sure you'll have to respond, because I get the feeling you're the type of person who doesn't know the appropriate time to let things go.)


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RE:Red Rats

Posted by ben reigle on 11/15/09


just let it be known i posted the original question in a forum i hoped would bring enlightenment to an obviously common problem in the industry i hold very dear. I post under my own name not hiding behind a question mark ?
things got way out of hand here and i have only posted under my own name , whatever has been said by ? is not me. I had honest answers hoping an intelligent board such as this would bring answers to a problem i see. Belittling someone for asking a question is a fucked up way of dealing with things.Education is key and the best way to become educated is to formulate questions. Questions that should be answered with respect and dignity not a pompous know it all attitude. I have learned through this experience that if i have a question on things like this, contact an artist i know or admire one on one and drop

I referenced Guy Aitchison's newest release of Reinventing the Tattoo and found this on page 251. "Most tattooists scrub all exposed surfaces of the tube and then autoclave them, not worrying about hidden deposits of ink. This is probably quite safe, and is an almost UNIVERSAL practice in the industry. Because of the way three piece tubes are made, pigment is allowed to collect only in very thin layers, well within the limits of what an autoclave can manage. However for anyone attemtining to implement a perfect cleanliness procedure, multi piece tubes are a weak link unless disassembled when scrubbing, which can cost extra time and effort."


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RE:Red Rats

Posted by anthony on 11/15/09


"I have learned through this experience that if i have a question on things like this, contact an artist i know or admire one on one."

try not to think that way.

well, what i mean is, don't let a few posts that you didn't really appreciate discourage you from asking questions.


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