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Nick Baxter Discussion Board
| Starbrite Ink |
Posted by Juan Gonzalez on 09/15/05
Hey Nick,
I recently bought a set of Starbrite colors and I was wondering if the colors where still being made the same. Because of all the recent law suits going on about what goes in to some particular inks. I was disappointed that the Starbrites where not as vibrant as my Eternal Inks (especially the light colors, which is why I got them). I figure that the ingredients for the Starbrite ink is not the same as before, because the label say that theyre made from organic materials. I may be wrong but I was wondering if you knew anything about this.
Your color work is amazing!!! |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by Markus on 09/17/05
after a big issue with some red and black they did change the ingredients of a few of their inks. and some of the colours even aren't continued for that reason... i am fine with the whole palette so far and never had problems with it. hence i never used the light red (discontinued) and the tribal black (discontinued)
the pink, yellow, lavender, limegreen and white are still the killer colours of starbrite i think but i suck so dont listen to me... |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by me on 09/20/05
unfortunately i don't know anything really about this...secretive pigment companies have become a pet peeve for me lately. i cant stand all the sketchiness about what's in tattoo ink mixtures, it's all for protection of profits and it's tyical capitalist bullshit. For the time being i still use starbrites, havent had any problems with them except for occasional inconsistencies in watery-ness, which has led me to consider trying some other companies. but i have not done so yet.
pigment knowledge and safety issues is something that really needs to be pursued further by the tattoo industry as a whole, and accountability and transparency by the companies producing inks needs to happen. i know other tattoo artists who feel the same way and have begun to look into these things. some people are wondering how far off FDA regulation is...but it's all still speculation at this point i believe....
anyone with some concrete, relative info on any of these topics, please feel free to post it. thanks. |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by chiKKkn FinGers on 09/25/05
HI.
I'd like to make offer a short essay about the whole ink thing...
OK, so since that whole Starbright mold thing, everybody's freaked out about their inks. That is understandable. I agree that these pigment companies should put the 'endurance' test on their products, and invest a little more time considering the biological behavior and aspects of pigments instead of looking for dollar signs. However, a tattoo is not a natural thing. NO ONE, not [you] or those companies can guarantee a client's arm won't fall off after getting tattooed with their product even with the most advanced inks. That doesn't mean they are putting some nasty sh- in their just because they can. They have, for the most part, that much common sense.
True, most pigments are derived from natural sources, and nature being as it is, a plethora of variety, especially in the quality department. Back in the day, if your house had lead paint, you were hot shizzle of the neighborhood. It only took them a little while to realize it'll kill ya. So science found something better. Acrylic paints...which are nice, but you still can't eat that sht.
It would be an advance to see those big companies take more concern and step up with science theory before GOVERNMENT REGULATION makes it THEIR priority. Most tattoo artists have a problem with authority anyway.
So yea. What the tattoo community needs are some tattoo artists by day/mad scientists by night, and a big laboratory. Then they can pour glowing liquids in a test tube, and with poof of smoke, there's the ink solution. A few companies have put ingredient labels on their bottles, without FDA holding their hands. That's cool of them. Hopefully everyone will do that.
THE END! |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by rawmutton on 04/12/06
For the most part, the very mechanics of tattoing keep it safe. Only a very small amount of ink ends up in the skin, and it gets absorbed into your body very slowly. Think about it; if your body absorbed the ink quickly, it would be a permanent mark, would it?
For example, browns may contain lead, much more that you would get in, say, drinking water. But drinking water is consumed directly, and brown ink is not.
Even the hoopla about plastic-based azo pigments is off. Plastic pigments do not react with the body at all, and are very safe.
The main concern about pigment safety, IMO, is not the actual checmicals in the pigments (metal salts for the most part) but the alcohol content that keeps mold and bacteria growth at bay. If you have a big 'ol bottle of ink that you use periodically (i.e. not shelved away) chances are you're gonna have to replenish the alcohol content after a couple of years. |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by me on 04/14/06
thank you 'rawmutton' for your knowledge on pigment issues, it is greatly appreciated!! it's good to keep learning...anything else about pigments you want to let us know? |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by Jeremie Miller on 04/30/06
In response to the comment that plastic inks are safe: plastic inks have shown photo sensitive reactions (extended sun exposure), resulting in swelling, burning and itching. However, it doesn't appear to be a toxic reaction.
I use Starbrite ink, and have had no complaints for four years now.... until today. I was about to mix my usual graywash mixes with some Starbrite Outline Ink when I opened the bottle and was alarmed to see a fine layer of mold coveing the inside of the bottle and the surface of the ink!!!
I believe this was first reported in 2004, and I have since read extensive material on the subject. The batch was made 2/2006, and was an 8oz. bottle. CHECK YOUR INKS!!!
I don't know if this is true or not, but I heard that Papillon owns Starbrite. Does anyone know if this is true? When the first round of mold scares hit I tried to find out who makes the stuff so I could satisfy my concerns with some Q&A's to no avail.
Thanx for any consideration you give to my comments,
Jeremie Miller |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by Jeremie Miller on 04/30/06
I found some info on Starbrite for those who are interested:
PRAGUE, Czech Republic The Czech trade authority has ordered the withdrawal from sale of two U.S.-made tattoo inks after they were found to be contaminated with mold, an official said Thursday.
Tests on the inks called StarBrite Black Magic and StarBrite Colors, which were imported to the Czech Republic earlier this year, allegedly showed contamination with acremonium, a mold often found on plants, said Miloslava Fleglova, a spokeswoman for the trade inspectorate.
The tests were ordered after a man had to be hospitalized with a severe inflammation in his arm after being tattooed with StarBrite earlier this month in Brno, 125 miles southeast of Prague.
It was not immediately clear how much of the ink, produced by Tommys Supplies, LLC, of Enfield, Conn., has been imported to the country.
Tommy Ringwalt, the companys vice president, said he removed the alcohol content from a small lot of StarBrite black ink after reading an article that claimed alcohol caused fungus, but he has since learned that alcohol actually kills fungus.
Unfortunately, thats been an embarrassment to us and weve put the alcohol back in there, he said.
Several people in the United States also reported mold infections after using the product, he said.
The Czech inspectorate will place a warning against using the ink with RAPEX, the European Unions alert system for dangerous consumer products, Flegova said. |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by me on 04/30/06
thanks for the info!!! yes, starbrite and most other tattoo pigment brands i nthe U.S. are a bit sketchy still, even in 2006...it sucks, but even still, in 99% of cases, their products work fine and last a long time in the skin.
but you are absolutely correct in that sunlight can react with plastic pigments...this happens especially with starbrite white...in some cases, it turns a muddy greyish/ochre color i nthe skin, potentially ruining the desired effect of that part of the tattoo...i have seen firsthand many examples of this phenomenon and have tried to explain the sunlight thing to dissappointed, concerned clients noticing that their tattoos now look fucked up. it sucks, but for now, what are you gonna do...starbrite and a few other brands aare still the best you can get on the market at the present time. |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by concerned and let you know on 06/04/06
This is a very sensitive topic for us, and I happened to stumble onto this site by accident and I will add this for discussion we to used starbrite for quite some time, and yes we had a contaminated batch of the ink in 04, for us it was a nightmare since we contaminated 72 people with this shit,,, we had no clue what was going on at all, how I found out was getting the ink tested which cost me big time, as well all the shit that was being posted on the internet,,, the health board here worked with me as well including a dermatologist. I had to pay for these people prescriptions etc and it cost us business, and of course you had the other yahoo shops jumping on this one slagging of course, and still to this day we have been accused of flux burn to hep c amazing really, but we did the right thing by informing our clients and telling the truth. Yes this was really real and it happened won't touch this product with a 10 foot pole, and we only use intenze now never ever had a problem, but remember any ink can become unstable you should really know your product and feel confident about it. Funny thing just the other day I got an email saying we made up the starbrite thing my god does it ever stop I hope this never happens to anyone else |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by bondar on 06/04/06
Sounds like you did do the right thing. I'm skeptical of Intenze as well though. Many of their inks smell toxic and seem to have a lot more additives than other inks. Mario had an ingredients list on his website and it was a paragraph long.
I'd recommend trying Eternal, Stable or Waverly. All are quality products and completely safe. |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by wits end?Tattoo on 06/07/06
this doesnt really pertain to the orginaly topic however. I have been using starbrite on and off for a while now...its a love/ hate thing. Anyways I have noticed that some starbrite pigments (light magenta) are really hard to mix, when shaking. I almost have to plan ahead if I am going to be using said pigment. By plan ahead I mean positioning the bottle upside down for several hours prior to using. Is this pratice common? |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by mike on 06/25/06
ive used starbrite almost exclusively for about 2 years now and have had no "real" problems. no mold, no infections, nothing like that. i have yet to see a white or yellow that comes close to starbrites, short of eternal ink of course. the only "problem" that i have had is with the lime green, it never wants to pack evenly or smoothly. that being said, one of the artists i used to work with had a client develop one really really neat infection. she did some research on the ingredients and found that some of the starbrite colors contain lead compounds, arsenic, boron, etc. however these are so trace that you probably comsume more drinking a glass of water out of the tap. at the same time, i am almost positive that certain people will be more sensitive to this than others. so maybe keep that in mind........... |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by tommygun on 08/30/06
hi this is tom jr from tommy,s supplies.we now sterilize our starbrite colors and have taking the next step to keep up with the tatttoo industry since it is getting bigger than ever.you can check out our web at www.tommyssupplies.com.
to keep in mind no ink is 100% safe because there are millions and millions of people who have no idea of what they are allergic to unless they bring the ingredients to there physician which would be the safest thing for anyone who wants to get a tattoo. we do carry all msds sheets for anyone who needs them and they will also be on the web for people to download soon.
we are not afraid to spend the extra time and effort to make our inks as safe as possible since starbrite has been a popular brand for over a decade.i have my whole back and arms done with starbrite ink and have never had any problems.
if you have any questions at all about starbrite inks you can call me on my cell at 860-305-7435 or at our shop at 866-2097361 |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by joe p on 08/31/06
As for the intenze colors, i've only had problems with the yellow. I did a peice with heavey yellow and it healed great. then 4months later he got some sun and the shit turned brown. Not sure what to think. joep |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by Murray on 09/21/06
Just don't mess with that skin candy crap.Worse shit ever....FUCK!!!
Stick with what you know and trust.I just learned this recently.
Hey Nick. |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by tommygun529 on 09/29/06
we have not changed our inks one bit for they are all the same pigments and we do still carry light red and tribal black and I also have four new colors that were made this week, leaf green, lt. flesh tone, baby blue, and steel blue.we Tommys Supplies now sterilize our colors to make them as safe as possible.i have msd sheets for anyone who would like them. You can check us out at www.tommyssupplies.com.the 4 new colors will not be on the web till next week but i do have them in stock.
sincerly
tom jr |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by Joe on 09/29/06
I remember reading a post on here asking why and if Iron Butterfly was a sister company of Starbrite's inks. I have looked for the original post but couldn't find it so I will post my comment on this topic since it's relative. If the above is found to be true it may be due to the California lawsuit.
I do not know how true this is ,and the number of seven employees I mention are fictitious because I can't remember to verify the accurate number, but from what I read somewhere a few months back is that Papillon was involved in the suit because the department that is envolved with the Starbrite pigment supplies employs more than seven employees. The makers of Millinium colorworks,(who supposedly supply more than 70% of all tattoo inks sold in the state of California), were discounted from this suit based on the amount of employees in their pigments department were less than seven employees. I honestly don't see where employee numbers would become a discrimating factor in decisions such as these, because it should be a safety issue above all else.
Like I said, I do not know how true this is, because you can not believe everything you read or hear, but it is a possible reason so I thought it was reasonable to mention this. If anyone knows anything that would discredit this information or would like to add their thoughts onto this it could be useful to know if it's the same product in case you were thinking of purchasing the Iron Butterfly line of products and were unsure of the contents and workability of the pigments. |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by tattoophil on 02/07/07
my suggestion is if you do not know the facts do say anything.as far as starbright is concerned if you have a question call tommy personally i am sure he will explain any concerns one might have. it is silly to comment on somthing that just makes the ink company sound like there is problems, with the ink when there is not.we all work very hard to keep thes e inks as safe and cleen as posible. our dispersment methods are as steril as posible , and if you must know the fda has visited the starbright facility,and they have complied .this is why starbright and ironbutterflys labels have lot # and sell buy dates as well as pigment numbers . so please ask the makers not the fakers thanks again |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by Markus on 02/08/07
i saw indeed that those colours are not discontinued or changed or both but are still taken of the european market... like a lot of people i encountered a view problems with the light red which were not due to contamination but to substance. anyways, all old news.
what i don't get is, why would you just continue selling a colour in the states when there is a well working system for checking inks in europe that says that there is an issue with a certain colour that has nothing to do with contamination... if there is a problem, no matter where this has been established, just pull the colour or change the formular. I am quite happy to work in europe for that reason that we have a system that will check these things so that we can work safely... |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by Blondie on 02/09/07
I was reading your messages here on this board and I want to thank everyone for such knowledgeable info. I am a new artist, and I am still very skeptical of what is safe and what is not in this industry. I decided that I would NEVER jeopardize the health and well being of anyone for the purpose of making a buck, like som nay "scratchers" I have encountered locally. I have never heard of the Eternal Ink that was mentioned here. Is this in your opinion... the best ink available? Also... who makes that Scream brand ink and is that stuff any good? One has to wonder about a label that says "secret anti-fade formula". Any info or suggestions or tips you guys can give me is much appreciated. Its hard to break into this profession as it is, and being a girl at that... well... you can imagine how unsupportive and negative some establishes artists are towards me. Thanks for your help, fellas. |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by joe p on 02/09/07
Eternal is good ink. I personally use intenz and starbright. Those two have never let me down. There seems to be alot of people on here lately that are just looking for an excuse to give somebody shit for not knowing something. Rather than just being helpful and informative. That is why this forum is here in the first place, to learn. |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by Blondie on 02/13/07
Thank you very much for you answer Joe. I appreciate it. Can you tell me anything about the Scream Ink? I know it comes from WWT2, but is it any good? The price is cheap, which makes me skeptical of the quality. Thanks again! ;) |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by Teardrop on 02/18/07
Hi ive been using Starbright 4 a while i checked my inks lately dey look fine just wanna know what does mold look like is it a fungus looking thing.... |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by Boris on 02/27/07
Nick- I am an artist from Moscow and want to buy starbrite ink here in US and take them back. I found distributors but not find the manufacturer. Do you have contact for how to get inks direct from the starbite manufacture? Thank you in advance. Boris |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by me on 02/27/07
i have a link to their website on my links page. they are located in Connecticut. |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by Pyrrhus Darwin Castello on 08/25/07
There was talk in a Finnish Tattoo board about the color red and how it can cause allergig reactions and makes the area swell up really badly. A respected tattoo artists said this about Intenze and Stardbrite red. Got me little bit worried,
"The propblem is that the color manufacturers change almoust constantly the composition and the ingredients with out saying anything about it. So when you buy the same bottle of brand as before, it could be totally different stuff than last time that you bought it. At least with Starbrite red this problem has appeared with many (almoust every) tattoo artists that I know of. Just those kinda swolled scab pieces (there was this link http://modblog.bmezine.com/2007/08/16/swollen-red-ink/)
Also Intenze reds have done mildly the same stuff. I myself use classic color systems reds which I havent had any problems with."
Comments please. |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by rob on 08/25/07
I've heard the same thing about intenze reds, not about starbrite though. I've heard that mario himself has pulled the red and is currently re-fromulating it. |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by dread on 08/27/07
eternal ink is in my opinion some of the best stuff on the market. the red cannot be beat. ive had problems with starbrite red in the past. the only starbrite colors i use are the greens. someone posted earlier that the lime green was hard to use. i personally just cover the area once with the lime green and it usuallly looks funny at first, but i know i put it in there. so i know its there. almost always comes back looking very solid when healed. if you over-work the area it can turn out patchy. |
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| I'm allergic to something in white Eternal Ink |
Posted by Allergic on 08/31/07
Fist of all i want to thank you for this forum and topic discussion. I've been scouring the internet for answers since I've had an allergic reaction to something in the white pigment in Eternal Ink since January. It's on my entire thigh from knee to hip and white was mixed with most of the colors on the tattoo so the areas where I'm reacting are extensive. I've been working with a dermatologist to control it, but it's hard to treat without knowing what I'm allergic to in the pigment. Both myself and my artist tried to contact them to find out pigment ingredients. When I called Eternal Ink the 2 people i spoke with said that nobody at any ink company would reveal this information to anyone. They said they have had no documented allergic reactions. I offered to share my medical records and to help them find out what is going on to make their product safer. I told them I would sign a non-disclosure agreement to keep their ingredient list confidential and that I would be happy if they would just release the information to my doctor so that my allergy could be properly treated and documented. They cut me off and said that they had another call coming in and hung up. I can understand the fear of small business not wanting to be blamed for a faulty product. Just please beware that if you do ever have any problems with Eternal Ink, you won't get any cooperation from them. I hope someone with the company reads this and is willing to start a dialogue with me about the situation. I'm not looking to sue and make money or even get back the thousands of dollars i've had to spend on medical treatment. I got tattooed. i knew the risks. I'm intelligent and informed. I just want to get medical treatment for my allergy and prevent my body from having to go through this again. |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by me on 08/31/07
fuckin a. that story SUCKS. ive always thought that ink companies are notoriously sketchy. yet another example (and i even use eternal and think theyre great). i feel for you man. has your doctor ruled out every other possibility besides ingredients in the tattoo inks? aka something that the tattoo artist added to his mixtures, or did during the process? or something that got into the open pores during healing? all this seems unlikely, of course... did you at least get MSDS's from eternal? arent they required by law to be able to provide them?
i hate the government and all that stuff but sometimes it seems like the best thing for tattooing materials, especially inks, is to have them regulated. so that if you have a problem, you dont get that type of response... |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by Pyrrhus Darwin Castello on 09/01/07
I hope anyone doesnt mind, but I posted this on
www.tattoonow.com/facemaster.cfm?task=message_list&thread_index=14867&generate=1
&
www.tattooconnect.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2240
so we could get a discussion going on. |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by Pyrrhus Darwin Castello on 09/01/07
If people have comments, lets leave them on tattooNOW board, so everything will be on one place :) |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by Pyrrhus Darwin Castello on 09/02/07
Allergic
Have you thought about filing a allergy complaint to the FDA? |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by Pyrrhus Darwin Castello on 09/02/07
This is quote from Nicks post back in 06
thanks for the info!!! yes, starbrite and most other tattoo pigment brands i nthe U.S. are a bit sketchy still, even in 2006...it sucks, but even still, in 99% of cases, their products work fine and last a long time in the skin.
but you are absolutely correct in that sunlight can react with plastic pigments...this happens especially with starbrite white...in some cases, it turns a muddy greyish/ochre color i nthe skin, potentially ruining the desired effect of that part of the tattoo...i have seen firsthand many examples of this phenomenon and have tried to explain the sunlight thing to dissappointed, concerned clients noticing that their tattoos now look fucked up. it sucks, but for now, what are you gonna do...starbrite and a few other brands aare still the best you can get on the market at the present time.
Do you mean they are best, as in they look the best on your skin? If people say (in this topic too) that some other inks arent as allergy prone, then clearly Starbrite ISNT the best out there. I am not accusing you of anything, but I have seen this type of thinking in other places too, that the inks are still considered the best because they look the best on skin.
So whats more important. Good looking tattoos or safer tattoos? |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by Markus on 09/03/07
it would be nice to have an ink that is very save AND good looking. for me, this has been eternal so far. Never had any trouble with these. And there wont ever be a brand that will be able to provide you with inks that nobody can ever have or develop an allergy to. Thats in the nature of the pigments itself. Pigments are a natural product. Some pigments can't even be artificially reproduced which would be the only way to make sure that there are no allergens in the molecule... (thats why i hate if the word natural or organic is used to make people feel like they buy a "safe" product... fucking cyanide, cocain, and sulfuric acid is organic too after all)
So anyways, I am all for artificial products whenever i can get my hands on them if they are known to work better than the organic stuff.
Most reactions though are not allergic reactions but mere mold and or excema that are caused by bacteria in the inks or such that have been introduced into the wound during healing OR tattooing. If something has gone wrong during healing you will see a reaction on spots that took longer to heal but are all over the place. If it's the ink, it's only in those specific areas where there is a certain color used.
Bacterial infections can be treated with antibiotics in form of ointments or pills. Mold infections and excema can be treated with certain ointments that you can get from your physician.
Allergic reactions though can only be treated by skingraft and are very very unpleasant. So you want to rule out everything else before you get to the allergy conclusion. there is all kinds of stuff that can happen... I would like for "allergy" to elaborate a bit more about the symptoms that the white gives you. Since i find it highly unlikely that white will give you any allergic reaction since it is only burnt titanium which is even in it's uneroded form absolutely safe to introduce into the body. |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by Pyrrhus Darwin Castello on 09/03/07
Thank you for your reply Markus :) Relating to it, this was posted by Tommygunn way before in this topic
to keep in mind no ink is 100% safe because there are millions and millions of people who have no idea of what they are allergic to unless they bring the ingredients to there physician which would be the safest thing for anyone who wants to get a tattoo.
So would that work? Getting tested. I asked someone this same question and the answer was that people can get allergic to different things on different times, so if thats the case, it would be difficult to do. But could this help?
And what are the type of ingredients on inks that have caused many allergic reations? Is there such a thing?
And why dont artists try to push things so the industry would be regulated by FDA? If the top guys start to do it, little by little others would join. |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by Pyrrhus Darwin Castello on 09/03/07
And Markus. Since you are in Holland, how different are things, when it comes to regulating inks, in Europe? I have heard that some patches (I have no idea what ink brands) that werent great, are sometimes sill sold to Europen markets. Any truth behind this? I read it somewehere but cant remember where... |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by Markus on 09/03/07
being a small (ridiculously tiny) country, the netherlands have a bit of an easier time with regulating things. With us the FDA is called VWA and i have one of the VWA guys coming in every 6 month to take samples of my inks (not all of them, he trusts me to tell him what i got new and what he hasn't seen yet) and check on proper labels. The labels have to include the producer, the supplier, all ingredients incl. Pigment CI#, Batch # and or Lot# and date of production aswell as date of expiration. If the bottles are not properly labeled i am getting a warning or a fine... They have a list of colors that they do not encourage the use of and will let you know that it's on your own risk to use them, and they have a list of colors that are banned for Holland. They also test inks randomly at conventions and will let us know if something fishy turns up, like bacterial infestations, molds and whatnot. It's a nice system if you don't premix any custom colors or want to use anything that has no labels on it, like stable. I got fined for using stable once since there is nothing at all on the bottle but a fancy sticker. My VWA guy told me though that he is fine with me premixing bottles if i show him that i do it in a save fashion and if they get labeled appropriately including all the data of the inks i used to create the special tone... |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by Markus on 09/03/07
i did write in THIS topic that there are inks that have been proven to be crap by the VWA and other European institutions and are therefore banned, are still sold and used in the USA. Maybe you mixed it up? you might find it if you scroll up. In fact the only real allergic reaction i ever witnessed has been a harsh reaction to starbrites light red. And i can remember 3 other cases in which that exact color has proven to be a skinlifter. |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by Pyrrhus Darwin Castello on 09/04/07
Yeah. Sorry Markus! You wrote
i saw indeed that those colours are not discontinued or changed or both but are still taken of the european market
So I read that you said "But are still taken of TO the european market" Sorry :) Is this what they do in Holland commong in Europe? I myself live in Finland and I am curious.
And people in the USA, why dont you invite the FDA etc to check out your inks as is done with Markus? Wouldnt that help? |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by me on 09/04/07
we cant do that because this country is fucked and its FDA is corrupt and unavailable to us normal people in the capacity it appears to be available to people in holland. |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by Pyrrhus Darwin Castello on 09/04/07
Well then, can you start spreading the word amongst artists about inks? What works, what doesnt etc. How hard is it to make inks? Sailor Jerry did it. I am shure someone knows a higlhly skilled chemist who could be hired collectivly to develop stuff. Or? |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by Markus on 09/04/07
this is going to be a longish rant and i have no idea where it came from...
i guess that is exactly what the guys did that are making our inks. I personally would love to finally get some time to start painting, learn some new software and make more art and flash so i just can't be arsed to start and develop new extreeeeemly safe ink (which there is not). Given the fact that it might prove nearly impossible to make this hypersafe AND extreemly pretty (whynot make it unfadable aswell while i got my multimillion nazi scientist right next to me already) i am just starting to wrap my head around the cost of a science project like that... If there would be an absolute safe pigment, don't you think that the big ones like eternal, starbrite, etc would not sell their families to get to the recipe first? At the end they really don't have any reason not to sell us the best they can, regarding that not doing so seems to backfire often enough and can ruin ones reputation for years. The wheels in tattoo industry grind very slowly. I am just not arrogant enough to believe that I could be the one out of bahzillions of people that try to make an awesome product, that actually succeeds... It's like trying to find a cure for cancer because i am being sick of scientists just being reluctant to do so... false premisse in my mind.
There is the 3rd reason why i would not spend any time on it, is that i just don't have to because i am very happy with what i got and i find a quote of 1/2000 (made up estimate) cases of allergy is good enough for me... guessing that this is as good as it gets with inks that still do the job and look beter than just alright.
if i can't make tattoos as good as i would like to, being restricted by a shitty looking ink that is an fraction of a percent safer than other better looking inks (and i would want to see elaborate studies, trials and statistics on that!) than i will choose the better looking product for sure. Or switch to another medium.
Great claims require greater proof or something along those lines
blabalbalabla |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by Markus on 09/04/07
The states are also a looot bigger and waay harder to regulate than holland. And all big government hosted firms are slave to the funding they get from big brother... The FDA (VWA) guy that comes by my shop told me that once the whole tattooing cirkus around inks and health is old news, i should not expect anyone coming by for years to check my inks. They tend to regulate as much as they can for some time until they see a positive trend and than bother with something more important. I guess that's how it goes and i think it might be appropriate. From what i understood, Fda people in some states in the USA are not properly schooled to even do a good survey of tattoo parlours so i guess you guys better start and find someone to fund this or create some kind of bigass united states tattoo artists society or club that is able to get the funds together to get a stone rolling in that direction... Self regulating is mostly what triggers givernmental institutions to take a closer look. Governments hate that shiat |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by Pyrrhus Darwin Castello on 09/05/07
You make good and valid points Markus. Thank you :) |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by anonymous on 01/24/08
The solution to 'good, bad, safe' tattoo ink is simple - industry self regulation. Why?
Well, the situation is so severe that U.S. manufacturers are being sued for supplying toxic inks and many are banned in Europe!
Most inks sold in the U.S. are so toxic that their material safety data sheets read: This material is considered to be a hazardous substance under OSHAS Hazard Communication Standard.
Safe tattoo inks can be made without undue burdens on manufacturers.
Although the US Food and Drug Administration has the authority to regulate tattoo pigments, they have not made any attempt to regulate toxic inks which are being put into countless consumers bodes. Their official stance:
"Because of other public health priorities and a previous lack of evidence of safety concerns, FDA has not traditionally regulated tattoo inks or the pigments used in them."
The FDA also does not require ingredient disclosure on the inksthey are considered proprietary (trade secrets)and so tattoo inks may contain any chemical, including those known to be mutagenic (capable of causing mutations), teratogenic (capable of causing birth defects), and carcinogenic (capable of causing cancer), or involved in other biochemical reactions in the body that might take decades to appear. Surprisingly, the FDA does not list cancer in their list of potential tattoo risks, citing only infection, removal problems, allergic reactions, granulomas, keloid formation, and MRI complications. The job of testing and legislating the use of tattoo pigments in permanent cosmetics has been left to the state.
The European Union has already addressed this issue in some detail. Perhaps their regulations can serve as a template for cleaning up a dangerous industry here in the U.S.
Current European Union regulations regarding tattoo ink:
Guarantees that there are no dangerous ingredients in the product. Products cannot be mutagenic or genotoxic; cannot contain detectable quantities of cadmium, mercury, selenium, tellurium, thallium, uranium, chromates or soluble combinations of barium. All values for antimony, arsenic, barium sulphate, chromium, lead and zinc must be within the range for cosmetic pigments. Each pigment lot must be analyzed before use and 100% free of illegal aromatic amines. (1)
This does not seem an unreasonable standard for manufacturers here in the U.S.
Without full disclosure of ingredients, it is impossible to know for sure what is in tattoo ink. Added to this, each color and each brand of ink has completely different ingredients, according to a 2005 study out of Northern Arizona University. This study also found high levels of lead in some of the inks, as well as the presence of lithium. And the blue inks had so much copper in them they went right off the scale.
In a lawsuit brought by the American Environmental Safety Institute (AESI) against Huck Spaulding Enterprises, Inc., Superior Tattoo Equipment Co., and other tattoo ink sellers in the U.S. As a result of this lawsuit, the companies must place a warning for their California customers on their tattoo ink labels, catalogs and Internet sites that reads "inks contain many heavy metals, including lead, arsenic and others" and that the ingredients have been linked to cancer and birth defects."
This is not enough since AESI scientific research found: the level of Lead, for example, in the leading suppliers tattoo inks used in a medium size tattoo (e.g., 3 inches by 5 inches) ranges from 1 microgram to 23 micrograms, dramatically above the limit of 0.5 micrograms per day of exposure permitted under Californias landmark toxic exposure law, Proposition 65,
Most consumers are unaware of the risk and fail to ask to read the material safety sheet for the inks they will be having applied. Whether out of ignorance or greed, most artists will tell the customer that the ink is safe.
In the absence of federal regulation to protect the consumer from highly toxic inks, it seems necessary for states to step in and take action to ensure consumer safety, especially since tattoo popularity is increasing rapidly. |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by me on 01/24/08
to whoever posted that last thing--is is copy/pasted from some kind of publication or 3rd party source? or did you write it specifically right then, for this message board? i ask because it has a lot of citation and a very journalistic tone, and i'd love to know what it is from if it was taken from anything. it was very well written and factual and brought up some really good points, some of which have kinda bothered me for a while now. so thank you. |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by anonymous on 01/24/08
No, the post I made was not "cut and paste" other than the quotes which are clearly marked. If you are interested, I can provide you with the URLs for each.
Again, the point that I was trying to make is that either industry will need to self regulate or the government will step in and do it for them (as California has started to do as well as in the E.U.) and/or there will be more class action law suits when people begin to discover down the road just how much lead/mercury/etc. they have been injected with.
It is unacceptable to have these heavy metal contaminants, as well as aromatic amines, etc. in ink - there is no legitimate reason for them to be present. Less toxic, safer inks can be made; as I said, check the material safety data sheets for E.U. certified inks against those from any U.S. manufacturer and you will see what I mean. E.U. inks are lab certified to not contain mercury, cobalt, uranium, amines, etc. On the other hand, most U.S. inks contain toxic warnings. Do you really want that shit under your skin???
The above post came as a result of speaking to too many artists who are completely unaware of the contents of the products they use and simply tell clients they are 'safe' because their supplier tells them the same. Try contacting any ink/pigment manufacturer in the U.S. and ask them whether-or-not their products are lot analyzed for heavy metals, mutagens, aromatic amines, and carcinogens - they will either ignore you or tell you where to go...at least that has been my experience after years of trying to get answers.
Only a few manufacturers have ever responded to requests for information regarding their products. I have always made it clear I am not interested in their 'trade secrets' - just whether or not their products meet a certain degree of safety that I expect and am comfortable with. The responses are usually the same: "we will not divulge any information" or "are inks are completely safe" but come with OSHA hazardous waste warnings.
Again, I don't think all artists and ink/pigment manufacturers are trying to deceive the public. It is very difficult though to get an entire industry to self-regulate when they only see it as an added expense since there are no real government guidelines or regulations. In other words, they can....and have...used car paint, ink jet toner and other nasties in their products simply because they can.
I have strongly advocated industry self regulation but if they are unwilling to do that, consumers need to step up and say: "wait a minute, you want to use what in my skin and say it's safe?"
The E.U. has shown the way. Safe, sterile, contaminant free inks can be manufactured at no undue hardship or expense to the industry; it just takes the will to provide safer products.
Artists: start pushing for safer inks. Use the information about the E.U. regulations to get your suppliers to make inks that are safe for your customers and in the long run, better for your business.
Tattoo Collectors: wake up! You probably spend more time deciding what toothpaste to use than you do on what you are having injected into your skin. The obligation is yours to drive the market by demanding that your artist get and use better inks. If customers start demanding it, artists will as well and industry will respond out of a desire to meet that market demand.
I'm interested to hear what other have to say about this.
JT |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by scott76 on 01/24/08
To the bit half way up Ironbutterfly is made by the same dude "phil" who makes ink and prick fixx |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by tk on 01/24/08
So then what inks are "safe" by the E.U. standards? If we only buy Inks that are marked "safe" by the highest set of standards then change will have to result, right? I would really like to know what companies I can order from knowing they are safe. |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by JT on 01/24/08
Among others, Deep Colours sells inks that meet the Council of Europe 2005 resolution requirements.
http://www.tat2.de/index.php?language=en&cat=c9_T-towierfarben.html
Note: I have no financial interest in this or any other company. They have though been completely transparent and will, upon request, send laboratory analysis certifying the product contents.
There are other companies as well. Just Google a bit and you can turn them up. If not, let me know and I can give you more links.
As per your question, yes, if we as consumers/artists demand that companies provide products that comply with regulations such as these, they will at some point meet market demand or loose their business to European manufacturers.
If no one questions them and demands inks that are not toxic/contaminated, there is no incentive for manufacturers since as I noted above, their products are virtually unregulated. That fact combined with their lack of legal obligation to ever reveal the contents of their products means we need to demand better or get what we deserve.
JT |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by JT on 01/24/08
Check
http://www.inkfactory.info/ENG/05_service/docs/23000-05079.pdf
and look at their material safety data sheet.
This is how any product should measure up, regardless of country of origin.
Ask your supplier to produce their material safety data sheets and compare...if you can. At best it will most likely read: "hazardous material."
Before all the haters can post claiming that since tattooing has been around "forever" it is by extension "safe," let me say that under no circumstances is it ever safe to have excessive levels of carcinogenic, mutagenic, materials injected into your body. Again, it just depends on what you expect and what you demand as a consumer. If inks that contain heavy metals and are reprotoxic are acceptable to you, great.
I imagine though that most people have never considered these issues since their artist(s) have most likely told them their products are safe and I'm sure this is done in good faith.
However, if you have a choice between something guaranteed not to contain certain materials and another that is a nebulous, secretive mixture of just about anything, which would you choose?
JT |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by Tania on 03/27/08
Any tattoo product in E.U. has to follow the related legislations (directives for tattoo 2003 - 2004 )
If a product published an official report which says that "is in compliance with E.U. legislations" , or "it's not toxic according E.U. regulations or following the EINECS chemicals catalogue " http://ecb.jrc.it/esis/
then the product it's not toxic -as the above - deep colours
(-it's a criminal action to lie about that so they won't lie but read carefuly and see, "follow" "comply" "not hazard toxic according EU - EINECS" if you see "try to comply" it means "not in compliance"-)
-Not toxic inks are free from aromatic amines and heavy metals in detectable amounts. In data sheets search if there is any hazard substance it will be named and must be there it's CAS number-
All EU companies follow such legislations (p.e. Micky Sharpz)and also some US inks ..there is much shadow in US market but as I noticed Eternal are reported as "not hazard" and there are maybe 3 more brands of inks which are totaly safe ,but I don't know their names.
A good test is to see the accusations that this state of California made for each ink if it's only allergies then it's probably not toxic ,if it is about heavy metal substances it has a toxicity level.
As I know all starbrite, moms ,intenze , iron butterfly , uv inks has a toxicity level that stamps them as toxic
The toxicity is the best to be avoided, but with 30ppm of amines in ink you have 75milligram of amines in 250ml of ink if a person gets tattooed from top to bottom it won't be needed such a quantity of ink... -even with the highest toxicity in some totaly awful inks reaches 250ppm of amines in ink which is 625milligram in 250 ml ink- .. A single cigarette unburn -when burns the ammount increase- has 28-100 milligram Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons which are even worse than amines, so none have died from 1-5 or even 100 cigarettes in a lifetime . It's worse for the artist than the customer ,who is in contact ( by breathe etc) with inks all time.
The companies has to do the best to give non toxic colours for the best for customers and safe-environment work for artists but hopefully there is not "a deadly danger".
I only use not toxic inks for the peace of my mind -but they have done on me tattoo with starbrite and I don't mind because risk is extremelly low.- As I said "not toxic" is better but panic is never worked well.
As about allergies none pigment is hypoallergic so work with dermatologist if you have a history of allergic reactions,
(for the girl with the allergy:all pigment colours in use for oil , acrylic , tattoo colours have a pigment number written in data sheets or package and most substances can be found from it , if this doesn't work buy a bottle of the specific colour and company and get it to doctor/laboratory for analysis)
Keep in mind that most allergies come from tattoo aftercare products which try to take the place of ointments approved for medical use and care (in europe mostly are in use Bayern products and I didn't notice statistics for allergies in Europe as in US -take this aftercare product to a dermatologist.
As about Deep colours ,many colours are approved and not toxic , (look at the start of my post) none not even diavolo novum is hypoallergic , the difference between them and all other is that other colours have mineral base with alcohol and this instead of alcohol and perservatives has "povidone, calcium sodium phosphosilicate, crospovidone and mica". The pigment recipe is hidden as in all colours ,and allergies in p.e. red colour is because of the pigment of red not the perservatives (which not differ from colour to colour) . Deep colours is a nice choise but as novoxx technology rise some other problems see if you like them and keep in mind that they have a small lifetime compare with colours containing alcohol.
The choise is hopefully not only one as many companies are already have not hazard products and many more will follow.
-See the start of my post- (and p.e. Micky Sharpz , WEFA , Deep colours and many more from europe ,Eternal and less more from US ....... 1 last thing keep in mind with net-shops that talens drawing and indian ink are not for tattooing only for drawing
If you want talens for tattoo- is only a 5ml talens ink especialy for tattoo www.talens4tattoo.com -only black-
pelican etc inks are also only for drawing or photocopy not tattoo)
Hope I helped a little!! |
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| RE:Safe Inks |
Posted by supernova on 04/02/08
Hi there,
I am getting some work done soon my problem is having finally found some totally safe inks from 'deep colours the ink factory' they are the only company in the world it seems who disclose their ingredients & have lists available on the net of what is in each colour etc. anyway my artist isnt used to working with them & wants to use his own liner intenze, which as we all know works well looks good but does come with the standard health warning 'may cause cancer birth defects etc..' nice!
so does anyone have experience using diabolo genesis turbo black made by deep colours? if so how does it handle & could it be used as a liner too? the work I am having is quite detailed black with small areas filled in.
thanks supernova |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by Evol on 04/02/08
What does everyone tell their customers when they ask "what is your ink made from?" For instances like eternal, starbrite etc....how do you know? How do you find out?? As of now, what is it that you tell them? |
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| RE:Starbrite Ink |
Posted by Tania on 04/03/08
Don't panic ,don't be afraid...
Many E.U. inks are non toxic and Eternal also look my previous post here.
Don't be afraid of inks if you are healthy now you won't get sick
As about ingredients Evol you don't have to care about all ingredients only heavy metals ,aromatic amines e.t.c. n... If there is a heavy metal or amine you can find it in msds with it's cas number and search what it is using this number here: http://ecb.jrc.it/esis/
some of them have on net lab exams but all in their official supply net-stores write "safety data sheets are available upon request" - so go there and make a request...
Supernova don't worry ,now about colors:
I was in thought to use diavolo novum,but I trust more inks that contain alcohol than novoxx (phosphoric pentoxide etc) because all alcoholes are better for preservation than oxides.Genesis have alcohol as I know but i also don't know how they look.
As I know there are many inks in compliance with E.U. legislations
Supernova don't panic If you live in a city near a factory area then you have to worry about your health and move,
if you want a tattoo there is no danger , the toxicity is measured with standards created for goods for every day use ... intenze and tattoo inks aren't a body lotion to apply it every day for years ,a body lotion after 8 years of use it's a huge quantity , nor food to eat every day , nor cigarettes.
To get sick because of smoking it's proven than you have to smoke many cigarettes in a day and smoke for years...
The toxicity of the worst ink if you use the whole bottle is less than smoke a packet or two of cigarettes ... You 'll not get cancer even if you do tattoo your whole body ,and with a truly toxic ink because the quantity is small ... (the only way to get sick is if you drink one a day....) Intenze are not even highly toxic ,they have a low toxicity , do the tattoo and don't be afraid at all,I wouldn't be afraid at all and believe I've done much research!!! I have on me with starbrite I searched it there is no danger at all.
If you are still worried,ask him for more not toxic brands -you asked only for 1brand- see my previous post I put some more brands maybe you can find it...But I say truly don't worry!!
Don't be afraid of inks if you are healthy now you won't get sick
Be afraid of laser technology and any "radiation" technology (solarium etc)... laser and radiation can surely cause cancer ,even if doctors in usa try to hide it (search W.H.O. or E.U. directives). be afraid of products designed to be lasered... ((((also UV ink technology is risky not so much because of the ingredients of the ink but more because that after doing it every day it collects under sun all sun- UV radiation ,to be luminous after , it's not the ink but the uv part the risky... ))) but this is another theme...
-1 more :and in previous post I wanted to write Bayer -
Don't be afraid truly!!!
Tania |
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